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John Schaeffer
Posted
Which machine has less problems and are cheaper overall to operate.
 
Posts: 2 | Registered: 21 July 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
<mike>
Posted
We used the BBraun Dialog in two of our clinics about five years ago. We had lots of problems with them. As someone posted on another topic, the software had lots of problems. We were constantly having to reload the software and change the harddrives. We also had problems with the balance chamber membranes having to be replaced about every 7000 hours and the vavles failing early. Like I said, this was five years ago, so maybe they have corrected the problems by now.
 
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<ashepherd>
Posted
B Braun Dialog Plus is the "it" machine. On line at our unit since February of this year, we have had less than a half a dozen problems requiring removal from service. This B Braun Dialog Plus machine beats the Fresenius (sorry, monitor, please don't censure me for using that word here) K machine hands down. So sue me.
 
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<mike>
Posted
How can you make that kind of judgement when the machines are only six months old. All machines are great for the first year.
 
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<kb>
Posted
I have worked with both, the Dialog and K for little over a year now and find both pretty compatible with respect to reliability and upkeep cost, but prefer the Dialog for a couple reasons:

Easier to work on- no panels to remove- don’t need a milk create to work on the hydraulics – components are more accessible – the conc. pumps are less of a maintenance issue and don’t care if they are feed by gravity or press. – The annual PM is easier and Tech support better.

In fairness, the K does have a pretty good troubleshooting guide which makes up some for the lack of Tech support.
 
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<toib>
Posted
I have been working on dialysis machine for past ten years,on various machines. my first contact with dialog machine change my mind on dialysis machine. 2008k can not be compare Dialog machines,First the manufacturer of these 2008 could not support you on your technical needs, about the safty concept of the dialog machine which l found most reliable for the patients,user friendly machine with help option which is well explanatry to the user.Dailog machine is only machine with PBE option that alert the user whenevrer there is clot at arterial side of dialyzer.the dialysate flow in dialog machine is constant on like 2008 machine with on and off flow system.
Dialog machine is less problematic because of the safty concept on the machine, the safty air detector of the machine is one the best,which fressenius is just using in the 5008model.The dialog machine is very easy to maintain because the hydraulic part is easily accessible to work in all these are separated.The technical information on the machine make it easier for the technician to know the state of the machine at any giving time.
The latest 5008 model of fressinus still has more to be added before it can be compare with dialog machines.l will advice you go for the best and go for dialog machines,dont be deceive with big name.there are many options on dialog machines, you have the online kt/v which you can know the target before the end of treatment the biologic RR which allow a patient with hypotension to be dialyze with problem.I hope you try the technical dept of BBraun and see what it is mean by service delivery.GO FOR THE BEST AND NOT BIG NAME.
 
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<ashepherd>
Posted
I have nearly ten years of experience nursing Fresenius 2008D, 2008E and 2008H machines to keep them running, as many as 33 of them at a time. The hydraulics platform is still as flimsy as it was 20 years ago. You can't expect a new coat of pretty mud to sweeten up an old pig. B Braun is, in my humble sujective opinion, the better of the two machines. No offense is intended, my friends.
 
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2008K GURU
Posted Hide Post
I'VE WORKED ON BAXTER 550,1550,ARENA,ALTHIN SYS 100,TINA,FRESENIUS 2008 E,H,K,GAMBRO C3,PHOENIX AND DID A TWO WEEK EVAL ON B BRAUN. SOOOOOOO I'LL START WITH THE WORST... THE BRAUN HAS NOT BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH FOR ANYONE TO BE SINGING IT'S PRAISES I'VE SEEN FRESENIUS E'S CONVERTED TO H'S AND STILL GO ANLTHER 11 YRS. BRAUN IS DRIVEN PRIMARILY BY HARD DRIVE AND ASK ANYONE WHO HAS REPLACED THESE HARD DRIVES, IT TAKES OUT EVERYTHING ALL SOFTWARE,CALIBRATIONS EVEN HOURS GONE,NO PHYSICAL HOUR METER LAST I LOOKED. DO ANY OF YOU HAVE A COMUTER AT HOME WITH A HARD DRIVE OVER TEN YRS OLD THAT WORKS LIKE THE DAY YOU GOT IT....BAD CONCEPT. HYDROLICS TOO CLOSE TO ELECTRONICS KNOW MANY IN FLORIDA THAT WERE A DISASTER, TECHNICIANS FAR AND FEW TRY TO SCHEDULE ONE SO IT HAS A NICE SCREEN TALK TO ME IN TEN YRS LETS SEE WHATS ON YOUR SCREEN. IF A DIALYSIS GIANT LIKE BAXTER CAN GO UNDER FOR THEY'RE DESIGN FLAWS THEN SO CAN ANYONE. JUST GOT BACK FROM GAMBRO IN DENVER ( PHOENIX TRAINING )COBE MADE MANY MISTAKES ON THE C3 WITH HAVING TO CONVERT TO HEXADECIMAL,HAVE YOU SEEN THE SIZE OF THAT BOOK. BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY HAVE MADE MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS WITH THE PHOENIX, I DON'T BELEIVE IN ONLY ONE PM A YEAR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN DOING THIS ALONG TIME KNOW THAT PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE IS JUST THAT IF YOU INVEST IT PAYS OFF ON ALL MACHINES.THE GAMBRO CORPORATION IS NO DUMMY BICART WAS AN AWSOME INVENTION AND THE PHOENIX MACHINE IS A SOLID PIECE OF EQUIPMENT, THEY'RE JUST NOT COMPETITIVE ENOUGH TO DOMINATE THE MARKET. THE COMPETITION FRESENIUS CAN BE COMPAIRED TO GE THEY MAKE A GOOD PRODUCT EVERY MACHINE HAS THINGS WE DON'T LIKE BUT AS CHASIN BUBBLE SAID WE ARE THERE TO WORK ON THEM WE DON'T OWN THEM. FRESENIUS HAS TAKEM THE PROBLEMATIC E AND INPROVED ITS MODULAR SYSTEM WITH THE H AND ADDRESSING CLINICAL SPECULATION WITH IMPROVEMENTS.THEN IT PRODUCED THE K WHICH HAS BECOME MORE BIO-MED FRIENDLY HAVE YOU LEARNED THIS MACHINE DEBUG SCREEN 0 ALONE IS SO VALUABLE,WHILE A PATIENT IS RUNNING YOU CAN SEE PUMP FLOWS,VEN,ART,TMP PRESSURES,VALVE OPEN/CLOSED.......SO MANY THING THAT YOU CAN RULE OUT RIGHT THERE ON ONE SCREEN.AND WHAT OTHER MACHINE IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AIR DETECTOR,BLOOD PUMP OR HEPARIN PUMP CAN YOU TURN IT OFF MACHINE FOR 60 SECONDS PULL OUT THE OLD MODULE REPLACE WITH NEW AND RESUME...DO THAT ON A BRAUN,PHOENIX,ARENA,TINA,SYS 1000,550,1550,C3
I RECOMEND ANYONE WHO HAS A CHOICE IN THIS MARKET BUY 2008K'S WITH A FEW EXTRA MODULES AND DO 1000 AND 4000 HR MAINTENANCE PROPERLY AND IF YOU GET TO KNOW THIS MACHINE YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF A VERY HAPPY BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER
 
Posts: 3 | Location: SEMINOLE,FL | Registered: 28 July 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
<BBonds>
Posted
"AIR DETECTOR,BLOOD PUMP OR HEPARIN PUMP CAN YOU TURN IT OFF MACHINE FOR 60 SECONDS PULL OUT THE OLD MODULE REPLACE WITH NEW AND RESUME"

Maybe it is just me but does anybody else have a problem with replacing components and putting the machine back into service without functional testing - let alone an electrical safety check?
 
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<mat>
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2008K GURU:
I'VE WORKED ON BAXTER 550,1550,ARENA,ALTHIN SYS 100,TINA,FRESENIUS 2008 E,H,K,GAMBRO C3,PHOENIX AND DID A TWO WEEK EVAL ON B BRAUN. SOOOOOOO I'LL START WITH THE WORST... THE BRAUN HAS NOT BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH FOR ANYONE TO BE SINGING IT'S PRAISES I'VE SEEN FRESENIUS E'S CONVERTED TO H'S AND STILL GO ANLTHER 11 YRS. BRAUN IS DRIVEN PRIMARILY BY HARD DRIVE AND ASK ANYONE WHO HAS REPLACED THESE HARD DRIVES, IT TAKES OUT EVERYTHING ALL SOFTWARE,CALIBRATIONS EVEN HOURS GONE,NO PHYSICAL HOUR METER LAST I LOOKED. DO ANY OF YOU HAVE A COMUTER AT HOME WITH A HARD DRIVE OVER TEN YRS OLD THAT WORKS LIKE THE DAY YOU GOT IT....BAD CONCEPT. HYDROLICS TOO CLOSE TO ELECTRONICS KNOW MANY IN FLORIDA THAT WERE A DISASTER, TECHNICIANS FAR AND FEW TRY TO SCHEDULE ONE SO IT HAS A NICE SCREEN TALK TO ME IN TEN YRS LETS SEE WHATS ON YOUR SCREEN. IF A DIALYSIS GIANT LIKE BAXTER CAN GO UNDER FOR THEY'RE DESIGN FLAWS THEN SO CAN ANYONE. JUST GOT BACK FROM GAMBRO IN DENVER ( PHOENIX TRAINING )COBE MADE MANY MISTAKES ON THE C3 WITH HAVING TO CONVERT TO HEXADECIMAL,HAVE YOU SEEN THE SIZE OF THAT BOOK. BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY HAVE MADE MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS WITH THE PHOENIX, I DON'T BELEIVE IN ONLY ONE PM A YEAR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN DOING THIS ALONG TIME KNOW THAT PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE IS JUST THAT IF YOU INVEST IT PAYS OFF ON ALL MACHINES.THE GAMBRO CORPORATION IS NO DUMMY BICART WAS AN AWSOME INVENTION AND THE PHOENIX MACHINE IS A SOLID PIECE OF EQUIPMENT, THEY'RE JUST NOT COMPETITIVE ENOUGH TO DOMINATE THE MARKET. THE COMPETITION FRESENIUS CAN BE COMPAIRED TO GE THEY MAKE A GOOD PRODUCT EVERY MACHINE HAS THINGS WE DON'T LIKE BUT AS CHASIN BUBBLE SAID WE ARE THERE TO WORK ON THEM WE DON'T OWN THEM. FRESENIUS HAS TAKEM THE PROBLEMATIC E AND INPROVED ITS MODULAR SYSTEM WITH THE H AND ADDRESSING CLINICAL SPECULATION WITH IMPROVEMENTS.THEN IT PRODUCED THE K WHICH HAS BECOME MORE BIO-MED FRIENDLY HAVE YOU LEARNED THIS MACHINE DEBUG SCREEN 0 ALONE IS SO VALUABLE,WHILE A PATIENT IS RUNNING YOU CAN SEE PUMP FLOWS,VEN,ART,TMP PRESSURES,VALVE OPEN/CLOSED.......SO MANY THING THAT YOU CAN RULE OUT RIGHT THERE ON ONE SCREEN.AND WHAT OTHER MACHINE IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AIR DETECTOR,BLOOD PUMP OR HEPARIN PUMP CAN YOU TURN IT OFF MACHINE FOR 60 SECONDS PULL OUT THE OLD MODULE REPLACE WITH NEW AND RESUME...DO THAT ON A BRAUN,PHOENIX,ARENA,TINA,SYS 1000,550,1550,C3
I RECOMEND ANYONE WHO HAS A CHOICE IN THIS MARKET BUY 2008K'S WITH A FEW EXTRA MODULES AND DO 1000 AND 4000 HR MAINTENANCE PROPERLY AND IF YOU GET TO KNOW THIS MACHINE YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF A VERY HAPPY BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER


The calibration values of the Dialog are not stored on the hard drive, only the user settings.
If the hard drive is replaced no calibration data is lost.
 
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<TTech>
Posted
I agree with bbonds and mat "GURU" You don't just put in a module without checking it out. The calibrations are NOT on the hard drive of the Braun machinesI have 18 of teh Dailog+ machines and we have plans on getting 55 more in the near future. Fresenius "tech support"? The last time I tried to gethelp it took 1.5 days for them to respond. I think someone is brainwashed by Fresenius
 
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<Steve>
Posted
We have had B/Braun Dialog Advanced machines for about five years. They are reliable and need PM's only yearly. I would, without hesitation, purchase them again. The tech support is very good. In the five years we have them, I've ony replaced 1-2 hard drives and zero balance chamber membranes.
 
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KD5DWE
Posted Hide Post
I always thought you were suppose to recal after swapping out a module on a K there is a list in the calibration book. I guess maybe to complete a treatment, but my name isn't on it. I told Fresenius tech support that I could read out of the book as well as he could but I called to get some off the wall ideas. I say they have helped a couple of times, and they do respond fairly quickly, much faster than SAP help desk! I guess it depends on who you get.
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 10 July 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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