Need suggestions on a drain problem....Unit has huge drainage pipes (4 inches), which had created many headaches battling bio-build-up. We have tried striaght bleach down the drains nightly, DrainGel, extended Heat Disinfect mode, you name it we have tried it! The unit is almost 3 years old and the idea of down sizing the drain pipes has been discussed...$$$$ not sure if this would end/solve the problem? Any suggestions?

You could buy a drain snake and use it on a regular basis with universal precautions. That is what worked for me. This is labor intemsive as far as cost but nothing near pipe replacement.

If you can raise the height of the drain then the head pressure in the pipe will collapse the foam.
3ft. off the floor is usually sufficient.

Anyone using "city water" flushing? Since our pipes are 4" and the machines alone do not produce enough waste water to keep everything "moving"...I also did not mention we are the 3rd floor so the main waste line leading to the city sewer system is "shared"...we are taking a look at a direct waste line........but I think volume is "key" since the drain pipes are so large? Any suggestions???

MRO,

Your problem may be not enough fall in the line. Here in Maryland, "code" is 1/4" for every foot of run. Another possibilty could be that the drain pipe is sagging in areas. If it is due to low flow, a realitively inexpensive thing you could try is to have a plumber install a device that would send water down the drain whenever the water is turned on at a sink. These devices are typically used to keep floor drains flushed and full.

I believe those devices are called trap primers.

the bio-film problem and the heat disinfect cycle are interrelated. we eliminated the problem at all of our clinics by discontinuing heat disinfect and instead bleaching and rinsing every night of the week instead. at the same time we changed our policy, we had a plumber come in and root out all the drain piping. since switching from heat to bleach, the bio-film has never returned. machine failures have been reduced also, because no longer does the extreme heat stress the various components of the machine.

Thanks for the suggestions. Bleaching everyday has had no negative effects? Wearing out o-rings, stainless steel fittings etc.... Any more suggestions are certainly welcomed! We have snaked the pipes recently and have sent down a camera to see any potential problems.....pipes appeared "clean" but this seems to go in "cycles". "??????" It is a guessing game right now!

bleaching everyday has NOT has any negative side effects. in the old days (maybe 6-8 years ago) when gear pump head failures were all too frequent, bleaching everyday did not do them any favors. about 5 years ago, i did an informal study: i took 3 machines out of a fleet of 18 and bleached them everyday, while the remainder used the standard heat for 5 nights and bleach for 1. i continued this for 3 years and the results were quite impressive. the machines bleached everyday had crystal-clean fluid paths, never suffered from any bio-film issues and regarding component failures, well, they needed hydraulic repairs about 75% less than compared to any machine using the standard cleaning method. i never observed any increase in stainless steel component changes, but the lack of temperature stress on all the plastic components was a huge positive savings. i have been a biomed tech for 10 years, and i don't make sweeping procedural changes lightly. this change had numerous rewards.

Do you use Fresenius Equipment? Any feedback on the use of "Ultra Bleach"?

we have all Fresenius H machines, although we have just received the first of several batches of K machines to replace the H's. therefore, i cannot comment on how the bio-film problem relates to the K, only the H.

To MRO
Re: Clorox Ultra; The Clorox company has changed the concentration of sodium hypochlorite in its bleach.It is now 6%. The old concentration was 5.25%. It is probably wise to dilute the 6% back to 5.25% or damage to internal components of your machine may result.Clorox Ultra comes in several sizes. 96oz/2.83liters and 180oz/5.32l. Add 362ml/12oz RO water approx to the 96oz size (in a separate container),to make 5.25%. Add 668ml/22oz RO water approx to make 5.25%.
Also a note on DrainGel, be sure to use at least 4oz everyday for a week in the drains and maybe at the beginning of each drain run,for instance where the drain from the machine plugs into the wall. If you "attack" your drain problem agressively and daily for a week followed by weekly applications after that,the "mell" problem in your drains + the smell should be taken care of. I know I have had good results with the product in a number of facilities I was responsible for. After having the drains back up and having the "mell" grow all the way up the drains and up the drain hose of several "H" machines,and also having a treatment floor flooded from a backed up drain I tried several methods to "fix" the problem and the smell. One that seemed to help was to select the extended rinse time on the "H" machine, which allows water heated to 80C to go down the drain, prior to heat disinfect. However the staff did not like that function as is often meant longer staff time. You can also physically pull the "mell" out of the drain! That is one experience I would rather not repeat,but it was effective. I wore thick rubber gloves,poured some bleach over the problem to mask the smell and man handled the slimy brain like material into a garbage can! I got quite good at it actually, what worked well were those little gardening forks that your wife might use to tend to her flowers. What you would do was to take one in each hand and grab each side of the slim and pull! Sometimes a big long snake would come out of the drain.Just flick the flies away. In another facility that was new construction I had small hand washing sinks installed at the beginning of each run, plumbed with hot water,that was the key. So during the course of the day the drains were flushed many times-it helped. At another facility, again new construction I had the plumbers pitch the drains 1/2" per foot instead of the usual 1/4". That caused some logistical problems,didn't help as much as the handwashing sinks, which did not work as well as the DrainGel. Phew! Buy it, use it as per the instructions,pour it down the drain and buy some more,it works!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRO:
[B]Thanks for the suggestions. Bleaching everyday has had no negative effects? Wearing out o-rings, stainless steel fittings etc.... Any more suggestions are certainly welcomed! We have snaked the pipes recently and have sent down a camera to see any potential problems.....pipes appeared "clean" but this seems to go in "cycles". "??????" It is a guessing game right now!


The main negative effect on bleaching everyday will be in the replacement of the diasafe filters.They should be replaced after every 12 to 13 bleachings.In this case they would have to be replaced about every 2 weeks as opposed to bleaching once a week which equates out to once every qrt pm. Bleaching the machine every day would be very very expensive. if you are not using the extended rinse cycle on the machine before heat disinfect i would reccomend it highly.There are certainly two sides to evey coin.Heating the components up on a daily basis can be stressful on the components but lets face it,youll be a very popular person if you dont have to change out diasafe filters every two weeks.Also if you have drain boards on your machines, the nurses should be poring a bleach solution down them at the end of the day.Chasing the bleach solution with the heat disinfect's extended rinse should help.I know I havn't had any problems.I hope this helps...good luck!

Thanks for the great feedback! The trial and error stance is getting old. All replies appreciated. MRO

WNY,

Though I have no experience with the Diasafe, I do know that it is made of polysulfone just like the F-80. Polysulfone breaks down when exposed to bleach and I have read reports of albumin loss after 12-13 reuses (of the F-80 of course). It stands to reason that if the polysulfone is breaking down and allowing albumin passage, you could expect the same thing from the Diasafe and bacteria/endotoxin.